Buddha en Mexico
A Conversation between Morgan Zo Callahan and Bhikkhu Nandisena
Jilotepec, Veracruz, Mexico
It's
been an enjoyable two visits (April, '08 and April, '09) to Dhamma
Vihara Monastery where I conversed with the abbot, Theravada Buddhist
monk and teacher, Venerable Nandisena, and some of his students
The
retreatants at Dhamma Vihara practice both "mindfulness meditation"
(Satipatthana Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya, 10) and metta meditation (Metta
Sutta). Mindful meditation is emphasized. In metta meditation practice,
the retreatants shower loving kindness to themselves and others. The
retreatants also do a practice called "sharing merit." At the end of the
day, the meditators recite out loud, "May all beings share the merits
received by us for the obtaining of any kind of happiness." [Que todos
los seres compartan los méritos que hemos obtenido para la adquisicíon
de todo tipo de felicidad; que los seres que habitan el espacio y la
tierra compartan nuestros méritos que ellos protejan las enseñanzas.]
The
retreatants practice thirteen hours a day of meditation. Be mindful.
Notice. Pay attention. Go deeply within. Relax. Calm down. Pay Attention
to breath. Let go of anger, greed and ignorant delusions. Radiate
feelings that all be well and happy. Intend for there to be peace,
within and without. Study the teachings. Do sitting and walking
meditation. Keep the precepts.
I enjoyed the natural environment
of Dhamma Vihara. Jilotepec's people are supportive of a Buddhist
monastery in a predominantly Catholic population.
The 10 Year History of Dhamma Vihara, by Alina Morales
Years
ago I took some workshops. The subject was attachment, change and
impermanence. The newly acquired perspective of these concepts widened
my view of the world and life. I was very grateful to the person who
shared this knowledge with me. Some years after attending these
workshops, I learned about Buddhist meditation, which helped me to put
these new concepts into practice.
What one learns in theory is not
always easy to practice. Meditation allowed me rid myself of everything
that did not help me to be well and peaceful. The hardships that later
came to my life did not seem to affect me the way they did to those
closest to me.
Two years later, I met Venerable U Silananda and
Venerable U Nandisena, when Bhikkhu Nandisena came to live in Mexico. It
was then that I started to deepen my knowledge of Buddhism,
specifically Theravada Buddhism. The purity of this teaching opened up
an even wider outlook, to wit, the importance of the precepts, service,
and generosity. Bhikkhu Nandisena's life was also a good example that
strongly influenced my life.
To establish a Buddhist monastery in a
place with strong Catholic roots is something very commendable, and
especially when circumstances and conditions are not the most favorable.
My First Two Visits
I
interviewed Ven. Nandisena in April of '08. We had a second meeting
about a year later. So this conversation takes place from April '08 to
July, '09, including some online communication.
Before the first
the interview, I was invited to the monastery a few hours early to do
sitting and walking meditation. I spent some time silently walking
around the property with its expansive green lawn. The animals made
friends with me: Tasha, a black dog with tan paws and mouth; a cat,
white and brownish gold, named Sampatti; a brown, white-collared dog
named Suvanno. A very loving dog, Suvanno, gets around graciously
without a left front leg. I later encountered an inquisitive golden tan
and white, dark-nosed donkey, Upekkha, as she was viewing a meditator,
Juan, who, sitting on a front porch, was serenely composed.
Two
main buildings with a meditation hall, a library and study room, guest
rooms, and a fully equipped kitchen are situated on 22 acres of natural
beauty in the mist forest of Jilotepec. Fog was crawling over the trees;
spindly yellowish green cacti were peeking up through deep green grass.
During
my afternoon "Day of Recollection," I did two hours of walking
meditation. The hilly environment of Jilotepec, Veracruz seemed also to
be making friends with me. I walked up to the edges of the woods, some
going uphill. Oaks, birds and animalitos, delicate rosy wild flowers,
icons of a Golden Buddha shining in a brilliance of peace, an
artistically done but somewhat claustrophobic meditation room where I
sat cross-legged for 45 minutes, just sitting, being aware of whatever
was arising. I recalled Robert Aitken's description of sitting
meditation: "Sinking into one's bones and sinews and facing the bare
emptiness of the mind. This mind is both inside and outside--neither
inside nor outside."
Born in Argentina Bhikkhu Nandisena is an Italian whose lay name is Angel Oscar Valentinuzzi.
He
studied in the Taungpulu Kaba Aye Monastery in Boulder Creek,
California and was ordained in 1991. His teacher was U Silananda from
Burma.
MZC: Thank you for receiving me and having this conversation. I appreciate your time. It's a blessing to be with you.
BN: What was your first exposure to Buddhism? And where do you practice now? Tell me what practices you do?
MZC:
With Suzuki Roshi in 1969. A wonderful introduction to sitting. I
benefited from his teaching of "not-knowing," i.e. Suzuki Roshi would
talk aboutbeing full of the wonder that reality and love require of us,
keeping "our beginner's mind."
BN: Suzuki Roshi was the founder of the Zen Center in San Francisco.
MZC:
For the past 18 years or so I've been part of the community at the
Rosemead Buddhist Monastery where Bhante Chao Chu (whom you met at the
International Buddhist Conferences in Thailand and Vietnam) is the
abbot. I try to meditate daily, but I don't always. Sometimes during the
day, I take a break from working, and focus on breathing mindfully. In
the morning, besides "just sitting" I use a few moments to send some
loving kindness to myself and to all of us, at times picturing or
thinking about a particular person who may be difficult for me or about
the soldiers in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan, about children, my family and
friends and the poor around the world. Sometimes I picture the young
children on the streets here in Veracruz who are working and begging and
some sleeping on cold streets at night. I wish and pray for those who
are now happy to have their happiness increased. Who were your teachers?
BN:
I studied the teachings of U Silandanda. My preceptor, Hlaing Tet
Sayadaw, presided over my ordination. You are under the supervision of
the preceptor for five years in the Theravada tradition. My preceptor
was the abbot of Boulder Creek in California. He passed away at age 97
just before U Silananda died in 2005.
Theravada (from the Burmese tradition) in Mexico
MZC:
How much of the cultural elder school, especially from East Asia, have
you brought to Mexico? For example, robes, language, chanting,
ceremonies?
BN: I wouldn't use the word "cultural," because the
Theravada tradition stresses the basic scriptures, the Tripitaka, the 3
Baskets of the Buddha's teachings. The chanting is done in Pali. So
we've brought Theravada Buddhism here, not the culture. We do the
morning chanting, devotional chanting and the protectional chanting. We
practice insight meditation. In the Burmese tradition we have our robes,
but we don't use bowls here in Mexico. We just have our tables in the
dining room; we eat on the floor. We don't go out and beg for food.
There are no Buddhists around here.
MZC: What kind of questions do the practitioners ask you? What are the most common interests among those who come to you?
BN:
Different people come. Local people are curious to see what we do here,
to see the Buddhist images. For these people, I emphasize sila, ethics,
and the 5 precepts. So all of us should follow ethics, which means we
do not cause harm or suffering to other beings. I like the Mexican
culture for several reasons. There is a wonderful tolerance and warmth
here. We like the people and they like us as well. What can we offer? We
can bring the teachings of sila here, more awareness of how to lessen
suffering in our interaction as human beings. We need to live together
harmoniously. We want to teach the importance of not stealing, not
cheating each other, not falling into drunkenness and drug abuse, not
doing physical violence. The Catholic church also teaches these moral
codes.
MZC: In Buddhism, there's more of an effort to cut away the
roots of those inclinations and tendencies to conduct oneself in
hurtful ways to oneself and others?
BN: I think that's the
difference. In Buddhism, that's what meditation and the practice of
morality in daily life can offer here.
MZC: People who are Catholics can then be enriched in their Catholism by Buddhist practices and teachings.
BN:
Yes, I think so. People come here as Catholics and leave as better
Catholics, truer to the best in their tradition. We are teaching by
example. We are living the ethical teachings. It will take many
generations for a good number of people to practice Buddhism here. We're
happy if Buddhism helps one be a better Catholic.
MZC: Do you feel encouraged by the response you've received here in Mexico?
BN:
Yes, I do. We've survived ten years here. I am still enthused. What we
lack here is the presence of more Buddhist monks. Monks do not want to
come here. I know many Burmese monks and they are not interested in
coming to Mexico.
They stay isolated in Burmese communities in the
U.S. where they can speak the language and follow their customs. There
are thousands of Burmese in Los Angeles. This is good for the Burmese in
California, but I don't know how good this is for Buddhism at large.
The monks don't reach out. My teacher was an exception. Ven. Silananda
was interested in touching many people in the United States and around
the world. The monks in the U.S. are overly shy. They are invited by
many of the Burmese families to chant and so on, so they are comfortable
MZC:
What more would you tell us about the history of Buddhism here in
Mexico? The filmmaker, Alejandro Jodorowsky, in The Spiritual Journey of
Alejandro Jodorowsky introduced many to his first and very impressive
spiritual master, Zen Buddhist Ejo Takata. Jodorowsky's play,
Zarathustra ran continuously for a full year and a half in the late
60's, with Ejo sitting in meditation on the stage for two hours. Ejo
said: "By having me participate in your work, you have introduced many
thousands of Mexicans to Zen meditation." (The Spiritual Journey of
Alejandro Jodorowsy, p. 15). Ejo Takata was all the way out there.
I
see there are at least ten Zen centers in Mexico City. I've become
aware that there are also a few Tibetan Buddhist centers in Mexico. I'm
told there are about 12,000 Buddhists in Mexico. What can you tell us
about the Buddhists, who are not Theravada, here in Mexico and Latin
America? And are there any native born monks in any of the Buddhist
practice centers in all of Latin America?
BN: I do not know much
about the history of Buddhism in Mexico. I know that long before we
established the monastery near Xalapa, a Thai monk had been coming to
Mexico to teach Vipassana. His name is Ajahn Tong. I heard Master Ejo
Takata was one of the first who established a center in Mexico.
Theravada is the smallest of the three branches of Buddhism in Mexico. I
do not know of other native born monks in Latin America.
MZC:
Would you expand upon how meditation influences the daily life of your
students? What problems with meditation do your students bring you? What
are some of the benefits they find in practicing meditation? What is
your principal teaching on the practice of meditation?
BN:
Meditation helps my students to be more mindful of their everyday
activities and to have less mental impurities. During retreats they
report they have difficulty keeping their posture during the entire
period of one hour; sometimes they experience intense pain; they also
report difficulty keeping the mind on the main object of meditation. But
with practice, hey find that meditation brings peace of mind. I teach
mindfulness meditation focusing on the breath as the main object.
MZC:
Would you express this in terms of the complementarity of samatha
meditation (e.g., breath with one-focused concentration, tranquility
meditation) and vipassana (just being present, "choiceless awareness,"
insight meditation)? How do they work together for your students? What
do you teach about the jhanas (deep absorptions) in meditation?
BN:
Both tranquility meditation and insight meditation are part of what is
called in Pali bhavana which can be translated as (mental) development.
At the Dhamma Vihara we mostly teach and practice insight meditation
though we complement it with the practice of loving-kindness meditation,
which belongs to the category of tranquility meditation. Tranquility
meditation is for the development of concentration, which is an
important step for the development of wisdom. I find the practice of
loving-kindness meditation helps my students deal with anger and hatred,
and the whole range of situations related with those unwholesome mental
states. Regarding the absorptions, it is important to mention that
there are two kinds of absorptions or contemplations: (1) the
contemplation of the object (arammanupanijjhana), which corresponds to
tranquility meditation, and (2) the contemplation of the characteristics
(lakkhanupanijjhana), which corresponds to insight meditation. I am
omitting the Pali diacritical marks.
We emphasize Vipassana
(insight) meditation, while sometimes teaching samatha meditation
(concentration). We use all 4 postures, sitting, walking, standing and
lying down. During retreats, we have one hour sitting, then one hour
walking. Of course, we observe the precepts during the retreats. We also
study the teachings.
The meditator can choose between
concentrating on the in and out breaths in the nostrils or the movement
up and down of the abdomen. If you observe only the object, just keeping
your focus on that one object of attention, then it is samatha.
Regarding
the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the great sutta (Satipatthana
Sutta) of meditation in our tradition, we use the breath as the first
object. This is just the starting point to ground us. But as you
meditate, different things will come to your mind and these can be
catalogued as these four foundations: the body, feelings, mind and
mental objects. But we don't specifically choose to stay with any of
these four objects, because vipassana is really choiceless awareness. So
you just take the objects that come to you in the present moment; you
comprehend thoughts, feelings and actions in the present moment as they
arise. Of course, the attention to the breath (anapanisati) is always
available to you and this allows you to re-focus in the now if you find
yourself being carried away by thoughts.
MZC: What was Mahasi Sayadaw's specific method?
BN:
The Mahasi Sayadaw's method consists of mindfulness meditation using
the movements of the abdomen as the main object. Mindfulness can be
cultivated in any of the four foundations, in several techniques, but it
is the mindfulness, which is what we want to imbue within ourselves.
There are two conditions about meditation, which are important. First,
that you follow the essential spirit of the scriptures and secondly,
that you do what works for you. You can then use what leads you, in your
own personal way, to mindfulness.
MZC: Do some of the students
specifically ask about the precept of not taking intoxicants? Do they
ask if this precept means complete abstinence from any intoxicants or
does it mean to refrain from becoming drunk, from becoming intoxicated?
Does this precept have any leeway, for example, for the moderate use of
wine? Or do you teach complete abstinence?
BN: In our Theravada
tradition, reading the original Pali, we see we should abstain from
taking any intoxicant, any alcohol or drug. This is according to our
tradition. Some may interpret this differently, but in our Theravada
way, we take this to be complete abstinence from any intoxicant. Here in
Mexico, people may drink moderately, but also some drink a great deal. I
also teach that the Buddha taught that "not taking life" should be
extended to animals as well as humans, not causing harm to sentient
beings.
MZC: At the Rosemead Buddhist Monastery, there are Burmese
people who discuss vegetarianism. They point out that monks in Burma
eat meat.
BN: Yes, many monks in Burma eat meat.
MZC: It
hurts living beings, but it's often pointed out that it is not an
essential part of Buddhism to refrain from eating meat.
BN: I make
the distinction between "the condition" and the direct breaking of the
precepts. So in the Theravada tradition, you only break the precept when
you directly kill another being or order another to kill for you. But
just buying meat, which is already in a supermarket, is not a direct
breaking of the precept; however, you are in the condition for another
breaking the precept. That is the difference.
For the monks who
beg for food, there is an understanding to take what is offered. But the
layperson has more freedom to be vegetarian. Here in the temple we do
sometimes eat seafood, but never meat. And we do not eat after noon. We
only eat two meals, breakfast at 6:00 am and lunch at 11 am. After lunch
we take a rest until around 1 pm. There is sitting meditation at 2 pm.
MZC:
I notice one of your works is the translation of some of the Abidharma
into Spanish. You do a seminar called "The Abiddharma in Daily Life."
BN:
There's a book written by Thera Ashin Janakabhivamsa (RIP, 1977) called
Abidharma in Daily Life. He was Burmese and rector of the International
Theravada Buddhist University. We received permission to translate this
book into Spanish. I taught an online course in 2005 using this book.
We had many students. This book tries to convey the many different kinds
of mental states, which occur in the human being, both wholesome and
unwholesome.
We speak about meritorious deeds; it is a practical
book about how to practice a life in the spirit of service. Also we talk
about the laws of karma, because we need to have the right
understanding about the law of cause and effect.
MZC: What was Thera Ashin Janakabhivamsa's core message for modern life in his teachings on the Abidharma?
BN:
The core message was that one has to learn about the unwholesome mental
states, in order to avoid their manifestation in our minds and to learn
about the wholesome mental states so we can cultivate and develop them
not only in our minds but also as bodily and verbal actions.
MZC: There is no self according to Buddhist thought; how does rebirth make any sense?
BN:
Actually the Buddhist teaching is that there is continuity but not an
identity. The intentionality of the aggregates continues because of
conditions. Those conditions explain why there is no self. When you are
asleep, though there is consciousness, there is no awareness. You retake
your "self" after you wake up. You remember who you were. When you are
awake you have so many different experiences, through the different
doors of your senses. "No self" as a concept is saying that each moment
is changing.
MZC: Buddha taught there is neither nihilism (no continuity at all) nor eternalism (one separate, unchanging self).
BN:
The Buddha taught a Middle Way that rejects both of these extremes. The
thing about the non-self is that it is like a fact, which we need to
discover for ourselves. We have to discover and experience for
ourselves. Actually there is no "self" that you are going to find within
yourself. You don't even need to get rid of your ego, because there is
no one there to get rid of. You need to see there is no one.
MZC: You are translating the Dhammapada into Spanish with its 26 chapters and 423 verses?
How is the Dhammapada related to the suttas?
BN:
The Dhammapada is a very peculiar work, because, according to our
tradition, three months after the Buddha passed away, 500 monks
celebrated what is called the First Buddhist Council. Its purpose was to
record orally for the first time the authentic teachings of the Buddha.
And the second function of that council was to classify the teachings
of the Buddha. The classification in the Tripitaka, the three baskets,
happened here. It is said that the monks compiled the Dhammapada from
the Tripitaka. But what is strange is that less than 200 verses are
found in the Tripitaka. So we don't know where these other verses came
from.
MZC: "We can't overcome anger and hatred through more anger
and hatred, but only through love." We need teachings like this in our
world.
BN: Oh, yes!
MZC: The condition of our mind is the
condition of our life. How our mind is, how our heart is determines the
quality and presence of our life.
BN: I think the reason the early
monks combined these verses with some of the suttas was that here in
the Dhammapada we have the concise teaching of the Buddha. The
Dhammapada, through the ages, has become the most popular book in
Buddhism and not only in Theravada.
MZC: I read one of your
translations on the Internet of the Canki Sutta, in the Majjhima Suttas,
No. 95, translated by Boddhi Bikkhu, which we read at the Rosemead
Monastery. What I find interesting is that the Buddha says to be aware
when we say, "we see this, we know this and we know the other is false."
Really this is a discourse against being dogmatic.
BN: That's right.
MZC:
We need this teaching even within Buddhism, within Christianity, within
Islam. The caveat against saying dogmatically that "we're exclusively
right and you're wrong."
BN: This is important. More than 2500
years ago, the Buddha said that regarding your beliefs, there are two
ways. They can be right or they can be wrong (laughter). The Buddha said
the person who protects truth would always say, "My belief can be right
or my belief can be wrong." I think if human beings would have adopted
that teaching, so much of the world's suffering would have been avoided.
People can do so many unwholesome deeds because of their beliefs. Put
your belief in perspective; don't just grasp them. Go beyond belief and
then experience what's true for you. I don't know if other religions can
benefit from this teaching. Do you think so?
With Buddhism, you
can do whatever you want. What is the limit? You have the five Precepts.
That is your guide for your actions. The moment you cause sufferings to
others, that's the problem. It doesn't matter what you believe. So
that's why the Buddha taught that the point is to be aware of what your
beliefs lead you to do. The problem with belief is what you do just
because of your belief.
MZC: How you live is more important that your beliefs.
BN:
Have you read this book, The End of Faith? And also Letters to A
Christian Nation? These books by Sam Harris make this point.
What's Theravada Buddhism?
MZC:
We study that there are three branches of Buddhism: Theravada;
Mayahana; Vajrajana. You emphasize Theravada. And, of course, we agree
that the 3 schools of Buddhism are based on the Four Noble Truths. What
would you say distinguishes the Theravada school of Buddhism? What
attracts you to it?
BN: Well, we have all of the Pali Canon in
Theravada. We have these three baskets of wisdom to draw from. The
Theravada tradition has kept this oldest living teaching of Buddhism. We
have these 40 volumes and I think this is unique. They are so important
to us. People should investigate deeply into these scriptures.
MZC:
We hear the superficial categorization with Mahayana being more
conducive to compassion, Theravada being more inward and Mahayana being
more outgoing. Yet compassion, meditation and wisdom has been in the
earliest scriptures you refer to.
BN: Yes this is a stereotype
about Theravada. Compassion starts with not harming others. So we begin
with sila, moral rectitude. Then you can practice loving-kindness. They
say Theravada is egotistic and that we think only of ourselves. We are
friends with all of Buddhism and with everyone, but we need to make
clear what Theravada is. True religion should go beyond the group. When
you talk about meditation, compassion, loving kindness, you don't
discriminate. You have to include everybody. Not you are Theravada. Yes
we are Theravada, but when we practice, when we live, we are like
anyone.
MZC: We are human beings in the best sense of the word.
BN: Yes.
Social Activism and Gaining Merit
MZC:
I don't think you worry so much about this in Mexico, but in Burma, in
Tibet, some of the monks are involved in mostly peaceful protests
against human rights violations. As you know, in 1998, some monks were
assassinated in Burma. You know the terrible suffering of monks from
Tibet and the Dalai Lama's call for peaceful speaking out against
violations of human dignity. And just recently, you've seen the
demonstration of monks again in Burma. 220 Buddhist monks & eight
nuns are in prison for demonstrating. We speak out in support of these
courageous monks and nuns and for the imprisoned Aung San Suu Kyi
through such works as the Clear View Project, which is dedicated to
freeing imprisoned monks and nuns in Burma.
BN: The
social-economic conditions are so bad in Burma. When you are in such
conditions, you do not have an alternative. Yes, you have to speak out.
The monks did a peaceful demonstration. The people do not have enough to
eat. So I think as long as it is peaceful, it is all right. I support
the monks and nuns in Burma.
I don't think it's good to protest in
a violent way. If you don't have enough to eat, that's the breaking
point. It remains to be seen the effects on Theravada Buddhism in Burma.
In
Tibet, human rights violations are there. But I don't think monks
should necessarily get involved in politics. I read recently in the New
York Times that the Dalai Lama may be a god for many Tibetans, but that
he is not a good politician.
MZC: You agree?
BN: Well, I
began to think when I read that article, that if the Dalai Lama would
just be a spiritual leader to the people of Tibet, perhaps a lay person
would be more effective in protesting human rights violations. A
layperson might have more latitude to solve human rights problems. The
monk is very limited. I admit I don't know so much about this.
MZC:
The Dalai Lama has said it's part of his spiritual practice to speak up
about human rights' abuses. Of course, in the United States, religious
leaders have been actively involved in human rights.
BN: Yes, Martin Luther King.
MZC:
Even Thomas Merton. I don't feel it is strange to see a religious monk
involved in protesting. I don't feel it's odd to see a monk marching for
human rights.
BN: The point with Buddhism, according to our
tradition, before the Buddha passed away, moments before his last words,
that we should work out our salvation diligently; Buddha told Ananda
that after he passed away, you may think this is the word of the teacher
who is gone. But don't think this way. The teachings, the Dhamma and
the Vinaya will be the teacher. So in our tradition we do not have a
leader. So the teachings are our teacher. This is like an injunction
from the Buddha not to get unnecessarily involved in politics, as
leaders, in my opinion. Although there is an increasing tendency in the
Theravada tradition for monks to get involved in politics, I think the
Buddha, as we know Him from the Pali Canon, wanted the monks to devote
their lives to learning, practicing, teaching the Dhamma, and also to
preserving His Teachings for future generations. This is a lot of work!
MZC:
Well, as you, I support the activist monks in Burma and Tibet. I do see
it as their way of practicing the teaching to relieve suffering in the
world. It's their spiritual practice, just as real and valuable as being
exclusively a teacher of the formal Dhamma.
Metta meditation is important to add to this discussion of speaking for human rights.
BN: We practice metta and hope others have metta likewise, that the leaders in China have metta as well as ourselves.
MZC: Finally, I saw on your schedule from 8:50-9:00 p.m. to "Share Merits."
BN:
Sharing merits is vocalizing about meritorious deeds which we have done
and which we can share with others. So others can rejoice at what we've
done.
MZC: So you vocalize what good deeds you've done with
others? Alina told me this takes the form of recitation, through which
we intend to share the happiness from our positive actions with others.
BN:
Yes, according to Buddhism there are unseen beings who may be near and
who can also rejoice with us. You just speak out that you've done these
meritorious deeds and you let others find joy in that. The mere
rejoicing is a wholesome deed itself. For example, you and your friends'
work with street children who are in need. So we rejoice when we see
others doing good deeds. Rejoicing is just the beginning. It's a seed in
the mind, such that others can also do good deeds. Others will want to
do good deeds themselves and will find the deep satisfaction in it.
MZC: Many blessings and good luck for your teaching here in Mexico! Thanks again.
BN: You're most welcome.
Most welcome to Google Morgan Zo Callahan to see if we share some mutual interests.
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